tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5721345113072669349.post790431365282245052..comments2021-12-19T17:48:32.283-06:00Comments on The Divine Self: Being Chosen: The Incompatibility of Predestination and Free WillRandyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08209444621702072458noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5721345113072669349.post-22873798015935140252012-06-05T23:23:00.967-05:002012-06-05T23:23:00.967-05:00OK. I am tolerant of people who choose to be Catho...OK. I am tolerant of people who choose to be Catholic (or Christian or Muslim or Wiccan), and I want their faith to be meaningful to them and lead them to contribute incredibly positive things to the world around them. That caveat being out of the way, I will proceed with my bold and blunt-edged opinion: It all seems very silly and unnecessary to me. The Catechism's explanation of predestination is a perfect example of how convoluted religion has to get to explain its own ideas. <br /><br />The problem with omniscience is that a god who knows everything cannot be a personal, active reality in people's lives. Omniscience means that a god is powerless to change anything, because everything is already known. If everything is known, then it is unchangeable. If there was a god who knew what will happen next week, he would have no power to change it, and neither would any human being. Which means that if there is an omniscient god, there is no free will. To say that a god could know what all of our choices will be is to say that everything has already been determined for us and that we actually have no choice at all. Free will requires that the future is unknowable.<br /><br />At one point in time, the fact that the sun appeared every morning was mythologically significant, as were thunder and birth and a host of other things. When people wound up with questions about the mythology, new stories could be invented to answer those questions, but it all amounted to entertaining and creative storytelling. Did people really believe that someone in a chariot drove the sun across the sky every day? Maybe, but now we think that's silly. So why do we still think that the mythology invented by the early Judeo-Christian practitioners is valid? <br /><br />One answer is that the church (by which I mean the Catholic church and many other organized religious institutions) has historically been excellent at preserving power. The idea of a Catechism is to make sure that people don't go off the rails inventing their own beliefs because then the power structure of the church would collapse. And yet, a multitude of Catholics today believe something different than what the church teaches. (I also know Jews and Christians who are convinced that reincarnation is plausible.) No matter how carefully filled in all the holes in the mythology may be, it still doesn't make complete sense to the majority of the people who claim to believe it.<br /><br />Trying to explain how God can be all-knowing and in complete control of all things while still allowing for free will winds up sounding like a convoluted physics doctoral thesis that ignores simple logic. It is incredibly convenient to conceptualize a supernatural being that doesn't have to play by any of the observable rules of nature or logic. Such a being could easily be the answer to everything, because the answer doesn't have to make rational sense. But it is also incredibly dangerous to rely on an answer that doesn't make rational sense. It can lead people to irrational conclusions and make irrational actions seem plausible. <br /><br />The concept of a god is ultimately not necessary for healthy human existence.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08209444621702072458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5721345113072669349.post-52657552557280830972012-06-05T20:50:33.526-05:002012-06-05T20:50:33.526-05:00One day we'll discuss just how long the statis...One day we'll discuss just how long the statistical odds are that the universe suddenly popped into existence out of nothing... on top of the odds that life mysteriously sprang into action, within that universe. But the topic of this post is predestination, so I'll focus on that here. :)<br /><br />I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but even from a totally secular point of view, it is darn impressive. It outlines, with searing precision, the Catholic faith -- laying it open for all the world to see. If there is a work anything like it in the Protestant world, I'm not aware of it.<br /><br />Anyway, it's a tremendous resource both for the Catholic faithful and those who wish to critique it, or in your case, critique Christianity in general.<br /><br />Paragraph 600 of the CCC reads:<br /><br />"To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination," he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: 'In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.' (1) For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness. (2)"<br /><br />(1) Acts 4:27-28, cf. Psalm 2:1-2<br />(2) Cf. Matthew 26:54; John 18:36, 19:11; Acts 3:17-18.Laurahttp://www.whitefluffyicing.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5721345113072669349.post-61415586538452800332012-06-05T07:26:08.739-05:002012-06-05T07:26:08.739-05:00Strange, perhaps... but obviously not impossible! ...Strange, perhaps... but obviously not impossible! <br />(It also produced tons of organisms who don't seem concerned about purpose at all, by the way.)Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08209444621702072458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5721345113072669349.post-48956783878721096902012-06-04T21:17:52.540-05:002012-06-04T21:17:52.540-05:00"Would it not be strange if a universe withou..."Would it not be strange if a universe without purpose accidentally created humans who are so obsessed with purpose?" <br /><br />-Sir John Templeton, 'The Humble Approach: Scientists Discover God,' 1998.Laurahttp://www.whitefluffyicing.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5721345113072669349.post-46387996954526734912012-03-30T11:52:29.851-05:002012-03-30T11:52:29.851-05:00Ok, so I'm getting that you believe people can...Ok, so I'm getting that you believe people can have a destiny or a "right path" to be satisfied and happy in life, but that destiny is more about what's inside a person than being designed by God or something else super-human. That makes sense so far... I'm still going back and re-re-reading other posts, putting some pieces together.Andrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5721345113072669349.post-78195551704508206942012-03-26T09:17:39.919-05:002012-03-26T09:17:39.919-05:00I do think that people can have a special purpose ...I do think that people can have a special purpose (or purposes) toward which they dedicate their lives. I would also say that some people deny themselves the freedom of pursuing their passions, the things that most inspire them, because they are convinced that they are "supposed" to do something different -- more responsible, more practical, more realistic, or whatever. Some people may find it compelling to believe that a special purpose or the thing that most inspires them originates from God. I understand and respect that perspective, especially if it urges them to do extraordinary things for themselves and the world. My personal perspective is that an inspiring purpose stems from within a person, as a result of their environment, experiences, and the abilities they develop. <br /><br />For me, the question of where that spark of inspiration comes from is not as important as the willingness to be inspired by it. In those moments of commitment to an inspiring purpose, it can certainly feel destined or fated. I don't really see a problem with someone thinking of their path as inevitable, but I think you point out an important piece -- people still have to choose to follow that path of inspiration instead of avoiding it. In the end, it's up to each person to contribute in a unique and meaningful way to their own lives and the lives of people around them.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08209444621702072458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5721345113072669349.post-47558917256155437732012-03-25T20:40:46.283-05:002012-03-25T20:40:46.283-05:00I started reading back through some of your earlie...I started reading back through some of your earlier ones that are not scriptual. Sometimes it takes me awhile to get through what you write, but that's ok. I'm always grateful when I stick with you..<br /><br />Anyway, I'm thinking on reading this one agin that people may have a purpose or a destiny without it really being because of God or whatever. Some experiences in my life have been very clear pointers to where I think I should be and what I think I should be doing. I also think some people can have an ideal destiny that they avoid and never get to see happen. I like the idea that there is a right path and a wrong path, but maybe you would say that's just an illusion? What would you say about that?Andrenoreply@blogger.com